The wisdom of Frank Stronach is desperately needed to wrench Canada’s economy out of the iron grip of central planners who continually meddle with things they don’t understand.
Please listen to Harley Schlanger's "The System is Broken"
"Recent warnings from President Biden and Defense Secretary Austin that the U.S. will soon find itself in a war with Russia unless Congress votes up additional billions -- for war -- highlight the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the present U.S. leadership. It is no better in Europe. Isn't it time we moved to a new strategic and development architecture? "
I hope you are right that the tide is turning. It will take more than just a shift in public opinion to take back control from the many public institutions that have the legislative authority to take over 50% of our annual earnings and lock down our freedoms.
I truly hope your economist would work towards aligning Canada with the BRICS and with the Schiller Institute, that would really prove to me his interests are for the higher outcome and not another layer of deceptions.
Isn't public opinion everything? Isn't this what 'influences' the market, which is a reality show of how people are conceptualizing?
We need to get ourselves out of this slave system, become a sovereign nation state again, prove that the green climate agenda from the UN and WEF is completely unsustainable, that with development and technology balanced with enhancing our natural world, we can create a higher standard of living with even an increased population.
Enough of this Malthusian philosophical approach already!
An enlightened change is happening on the planet. A unity consciousness that shares prosperity and does not destroy the planet. Not hidden manipulative globalist war mongering agendas ! Trudeau and Biden have proven themselves to be puppets of the DS. Their time has come to an end as shown by their actions and the lack of support, pushback, that steadily grows in each country and around the world.
Cheerio, I agree. Not just the UN. The WEF, WHO, and Big Pharma. The DS has us entwined and an election change is coming to get us out of this. On both sides of the border ! Thanks for the reply.
> Ever since Pierre Elliot Trudeau was Prime Minister, political power arose from the influence, funding and support of special interest groups
This was always the case. It can't be any other way, statism is evil, it attracts the worst among us. John Macdonald and Mackenzie King were all about bribery and special interests, that was their only training/job (lawfare, bureaucracy).
Regarding Stronach's 7 points...
> 5) Share Profits With Canadian Workers
Deceptively worded (he meant only the workers in those profitable companies that they work for, not "canadian workers" in general :p.
> We should require students in their final two years of high school to be exposed to one or more technical trades
> provide every Canadian school kid with healthy, organic meals.
> establish educational programs where children can learn about the nutritional benefits of foods and the critical role that food plays in human health
Smh. He can't help but succumb to that temptation of power, that siren call of dictatorship :P. All of those things are evil interventions into the market. The stuff about "healthy food" is especially absurd given how controversial the field still is - would his Big Brother gov push the keto diet or the vegan diet? :P Soybeans or cricket protein or gass-fed beef? Cuz there are passionate advocates for each of those camps who are ~100% convinced they're right. Does Stranach know more than passionate market participants? ;)
> It has led to a large and growing divide between the rich and the working class
Red herring. Is he (dishonestly) pandering to lefties here? (Ie. that divide doesn't matter, only the bottom end. Being "too successful" ought not be a problem :|.)
> everyone should have access to shelter and health care. [ie. gov healthcare/welfare]
I'm no longer sure whether he's just pandering, or whether he's a legit "mincom" / "minimal-commie" at heart :P.
Why is libertarianism (non-initiation-of-violence) so hard. Sigh.
I'm also curious how he made his money - any gov contracts for his products? My cynical experience suggests that nobody becomes that big without Big Brother collusion (eg. Microsoft, etc etc)
The only reform I feel will save us not only in Canada but globally is to join the BRICS 11 now and get on board with the LaRouche, famous American Economist embellishing the American Systems of Economics established by Alexander Hamilton.
LaRouche implemented the Glass Steagall program. Along with that would be to align with the Schiller Institutes Ten Principles of a New International Security and Development Architecture.
I read the 10 principles of the Schiller Institute.
I prefer the following:
Principles for a Civil Society.
PREAMBLE
Throughout our lifetimes, Canadians have been taught to believe that our public institutions serve “the greater good” and thereby place the rights of the individual above the interests of the state. In reality, however, our rights have been ignored to the detriment of our business enterprises, communities and especially our families.
Civis4Reform was created out of the frustrations felt and expressed by many Canadians. They can no longer ignore the failures of our public institutions and agencies to serve in a manner that protects the natural rights and just interests of our citizens.
Trust is low that the Constitution will protect Canadians in a fair, equitable and affordable manner.
Respect for those employed in the associated public services and the government-subsidized media has been replaced by suspicion and resentment by many citizens. A sense is growing that the powers of government are being hijacked to pursue personal or ideological agendas that bring harm to our citizens.
Civis4Reform’s goal is to reach as many Canadians as possible who want to rectify government failures. Guided by the following Principles, our members will act to re-assert our rights and freedoms with courage and determination. We will hold all regimes of public authority accountable to:
* act as trustees whose sole duty is to protect the public and private property rights of every person, and to defend their just interests and priorities.
* correct their current and past misdeeds,
* undertake only those responsibilities that are approved by our citizens , and to
* provide agreed essential services that cannot be provided by others, and to do so in an efficient, effective and affordable manner.
These goals will be achieved when enough citizens join the cause…
PRINCIPLES
1. Each person possesses a body, mind, will and life energy. With these intrinsic assets, every person may inherit, build and/or acquire legitimate extrinsic assets to be used to survive and thrive.
2. Every person has the inalienable right to: the uninterrupted enjoyment of their life; to freedom of speech; freedom of association; the freedom to pursue their own just goals and to the property that they justly acquired.
3. The family has proven indispensable to thriving societies throughout human history. It must be honoured and protected against excessive and unwarranted intrusions by government.
4. We honour the past but don’t let it unnecessarily restrict our current and future choices.
5. In civil societies, each person grows from undertaking personal responsibility under age-appropriate circumstances in which individual freedom exists to make life-affirming choices. Governments may assist with the basic needs of those persons who are proven unable to help themselves.
6. The size and cost of government institutions and agencies must be strictly capped. The scope of authority assigned to Governments must be determined solely by Canadian citizens through electoral processes and plebiscites. The application and enforcement of government powers must exist serve Canadians in a transparent and accountable manner. Any public servant(s) who fail to do so may be charged with the crime of embezzling public assets and face appropriate legal consequences.
7. The institutions of governments responsible for Law & Order are accountable to administer and enforce unbiased laws and regulations in a fair, respectful and just manner. Agents of Justice are accountable to defend and protect every citizen from unwarranted and unwanted harms and aggressions imposed by any other person, group, institution or company, and any agent of government or the courts.
8. Under a limited mandate determined electorally by Canadians, Governments hold in trust and maintain public property and common assets only to serve the present and future benefits of all citizens.
9. Governments may only provide and maintain infrastructure and services that could not be adequately provided without government involvement or funding. If anti-trust laws exist to break up corporate monopolies, governments must play by the same rules and not be allowed to dominate market sectors without justification.
10. Competition can and should exist in some of the domains of social and economic activity that are currently the exclusive responsibility of governments. Competition will eliminate the unnecessary and undemocratic monopoly powers of governments and any public-private partnerships that don’t directly serve Canadians.
Yes, my question is, how do you do this without recognizing we are not a Nation, we have lost control of our Nation? The UN has stepped in and has taken over our governance and is directly influencing the changes of our laws so much so that our original Preamble no longer stands!
So what laws does our country abide by at this time? If we name it and say we are a UN Country, then we should be following the International Laws.
Wouldn't it be of value to request an FOI around Mulroney's signing Canada up for the UN back in 1992, to see what all the parameters are?
The LaRouche movement which is followed up by the Schiller Institute's Helga Zepp-LaRouche, Lyndon LaRouche' widow is a long time running systems of economic development that create a balanced world in peace by eliminating poverty and creating a sustainable future thus a greater sustainable future for humanity.
I like what Daniele Smith is doing in Alberta. The Alberta Sovereignty Act is a step towards breaking the legislative handcuffs between the Federal Government and the people of Alberta. If she takes it to the logical conclusions, she will be able to exercise Alberta sovereignty against any “agreement” between the UN (and others) and the Canadian government.
Perhaps, but not less than Canadians have a perception about China and their people.
It seems that at the heart of our education system comes a full scale indoctrination of beliefs and even as far as mass psychosis.
When I read these 7 Principles, I don't feel safe or that the country will survive, because they do not address to core rotten cause of why we lost Canada, why we've damaged the environment and how the green climate talk of the UN, WEF especially are pushed upon us which is completely unsustainable, these 7 Principles don't light a candle to what Lyndon LaRouche and the Schiller Institutes functional principles offer.
When I hear Helga Zepp-LaRouche speak, my nervous system calms down, I feel the strategies they have to offer are not only addressing the root causes, but also, how to progressively move forward in a multipolar world with peace.
Perhaps there is a cause to implement and work with the Schiller Institute for finding the support, especially in the development and societal well being and standards of living.
We lost Canada the Nation a long time ago, thanks to Mr Mulroney!
In case you are unaware, https://mises.org/ is the #1 site in the world for the Austrian “school” of Economics which has many great thinkers and writers. I only recognize the Austrian School as the legitimate form of Economics for Civil Societies. The Keynesian and Chicago “schools” place governments and central banks as the central authorities of Western economies. Read “Democracy, The God That Failed by Dr. Hans-Hermann Hoppe if you want to better understand possibilities for less authoritarian economies.
We will have to agree to disagree. Austrian Economics is the basis of the oligarchical system... you know once the Venetian Empire collapsed, they set up in Austria and influenced the banking/economic developments then. Still accustomed to the Malthusian principles of the oligarch we are seemingly both opposed to this day.
Perhaps you may also wish to realize, the 'West' is collapsing due to the involvement that supports these mechanisms.
I wonder is we are speaking of two different things. I have read and studied Austrian Economics (see www.Mises.org) for 17 years and studied Keynesian Economics at U of Toronto in the late 1970s as part of an MBA program. You seem to be referring to historical geo-political shifts that took place centuries ago rather than the very rich corpus of Austrian Economics scholars. The fight over the “new financial order” is funded by billionaires and led by globalists associated with the WEF, UN, WHO, IMF and IBS. Their attempts to create a One World Order are completely contrary to every value and principle of those Austrian Economics scholars and Libertarians like me who favour the Austrian School of Economics.
No I'm taking a stance with historical proof of how strongly against the Austrian Economics school I am...
The people who supported Independent National Developments in the US and elsewhere, were followers of the American Systems of Economics - initiated by Alexander Hamilton ~ most recently carried forward by late Lyndon LaRouche but still active with the Schiller Institute movement.
What few believe is the story of Sun Yat-sen who followed these principles - the first Chinese President that practiced Christian faith also. The Germans did also and many other "Independent" seeking countries.
Here is the philosophical differences you may want to read about.
If you are educated in libertarian think tank systems, I cannot expect miracles, but I guess I feel if you can't see the values in this directive of the Glass Steagall and American Systems of Economics to not only work together in a multi-polar world, well... I have no need to try to convince you. However, I feel without this shift our world will forever be enthralled in oligarchical control, continuous war and eventually an extinction, to put things lightly.
The Colonialists do have their record for destruction over negotiation and freedoms.
Please listen to Harley Schlanger's "The System is Broken"
"Recent warnings from President Biden and Defense Secretary Austin that the U.S. will soon find itself in a war with Russia unless Congress votes up additional billions -- for war -- highlight the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the present U.S. leadership. It is no better in Europe. Isn't it time we moved to a new strategic and development architecture? "
https://youtu.be/VoyIb1d5xq0?si=6fpVS36jexyw4xkE
"The Four New Laws to Save the USA NOW! Not an Option: An Immediate Necessity!"
The American Systems of Economics of Alexander Hamilton - will be a global makeover, not just one country!
https://laroucheorganization.com/node/1213
I hope you are right that the tide is turning. It will take more than just a shift in public opinion to take back control from the many public institutions that have the legislative authority to take over 50% of our annual earnings and lock down our freedoms.
I truly hope your economist would work towards aligning Canada with the BRICS and with the Schiller Institute, that would really prove to me his interests are for the higher outcome and not another layer of deceptions.
Isn't public opinion everything? Isn't this what 'influences' the market, which is a reality show of how people are conceptualizing?
We need to get ourselves out of this slave system, become a sovereign nation state again, prove that the green climate agenda from the UN and WEF is completely unsustainable, that with development and technology balanced with enhancing our natural world, we can create a higher standard of living with even an increased population.
Enough of this Malthusian philosophical approach already!
If you're building something, do it well.
I offer you Matt Ehret's piece called "The Genocidal Roots of the Green New Deal: The Limits to Growth and the Unchaining of Prometheus: https://canadianpatriot.org/2022/09/06/the-genocidal-roots-of-the-green-new-deal-the-limits-to-growth-and-the-unchaining-of-prometheus/
An enlightened change is happening on the planet. A unity consciousness that shares prosperity and does not destroy the planet. Not hidden manipulative globalist war mongering agendas ! Trudeau and Biden have proven themselves to be puppets of the DS. Their time has come to an end as shown by their actions and the lack of support, pushback, that steadily grows in each country and around the world.
Yes they are puppets - to the UN - we have to be rid of Canada's involvement and justification for being a UN Nation and bring back Canada!
Cheerio, I agree. Not just the UN. The WEF, WHO, and Big Pharma. The DS has us entwined and an election change is coming to get us out of this. On both sides of the border ! Thanks for the reply.
To name a few at that! Yes in fact we have a de facto operative afoot. Where by Canada is run by NGO's!
> Ever since Pierre Elliot Trudeau was Prime Minister, political power arose from the influence, funding and support of special interest groups
This was always the case. It can't be any other way, statism is evil, it attracts the worst among us. John Macdonald and Mackenzie King were all about bribery and special interests, that was their only training/job (lawfare, bureaucracy).
Regarding Stronach's 7 points...
> 5) Share Profits With Canadian Workers
Deceptively worded (he meant only the workers in those profitable companies that they work for, not "canadian workers" in general :p.
> We should require students in their final two years of high school to be exposed to one or more technical trades
> provide every Canadian school kid with healthy, organic meals.
> establish educational programs where children can learn about the nutritional benefits of foods and the critical role that food plays in human health
Smh. He can't help but succumb to that temptation of power, that siren call of dictatorship :P. All of those things are evil interventions into the market. The stuff about "healthy food" is especially absurd given how controversial the field still is - would his Big Brother gov push the keto diet or the vegan diet? :P Soybeans or cricket protein or gass-fed beef? Cuz there are passionate advocates for each of those camps who are ~100% convinced they're right. Does Stranach know more than passionate market participants? ;)
> It has led to a large and growing divide between the rich and the working class
Red herring. Is he (dishonestly) pandering to lefties here? (Ie. that divide doesn't matter, only the bottom end. Being "too successful" ought not be a problem :|.)
> everyone should have access to shelter and health care. [ie. gov healthcare/welfare]
I'm no longer sure whether he's just pandering, or whether he's a legit "mincom" / "minimal-commie" at heart :P.
Why is libertarianism (non-initiation-of-violence) so hard. Sigh.
I'm also curious how he made his money - any gov contracts for his products? My cynical experience suggests that nobody becomes that big without Big Brother collusion (eg. Microsoft, etc etc)
Seriously? an Austrian Economist?
The only reform I feel will save us not only in Canada but globally is to join the BRICS 11 now and get on board with the LaRouche, famous American Economist embellishing the American Systems of Economics established by Alexander Hamilton.
LaRouche implemented the Glass Steagall program. Along with that would be to align with the Schiller Institutes Ten Principles of a New International Security and Development Architecture.
https://schillerinstitute.com/blog/2022/11/30/ten-principles-of-a-new-international-security-and-development-architecture/
There was an earlier Austrian Economics basis in this American Systems of Economics but it was infiltrated by an insurgent movement called the Mont Pelerin Society - take a peak at this summarization: https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1995/eirv22n08-19950217/eirv22n08-19950217_046-the_legacy_of_friedrich_von_haye.pdf
Maybe re-consider what you are committing yourself and requesting many others into please!
I read the 10 principles of the Schiller Institute.
I prefer the following:
Principles for a Civil Society.
PREAMBLE
Throughout our lifetimes, Canadians have been taught to believe that our public institutions serve “the greater good” and thereby place the rights of the individual above the interests of the state. In reality, however, our rights have been ignored to the detriment of our business enterprises, communities and especially our families.
Civis4Reform was created out of the frustrations felt and expressed by many Canadians. They can no longer ignore the failures of our public institutions and agencies to serve in a manner that protects the natural rights and just interests of our citizens.
Trust is low that the Constitution will protect Canadians in a fair, equitable and affordable manner.
Respect for those employed in the associated public services and the government-subsidized media has been replaced by suspicion and resentment by many citizens. A sense is growing that the powers of government are being hijacked to pursue personal or ideological agendas that bring harm to our citizens.
Civis4Reform’s goal is to reach as many Canadians as possible who want to rectify government failures. Guided by the following Principles, our members will act to re-assert our rights and freedoms with courage and determination. We will hold all regimes of public authority accountable to:
* act as trustees whose sole duty is to protect the public and private property rights of every person, and to defend their just interests and priorities.
* correct their current and past misdeeds,
* undertake only those responsibilities that are approved by our citizens , and to
* provide agreed essential services that cannot be provided by others, and to do so in an efficient, effective and affordable manner.
These goals will be achieved when enough citizens join the cause…
PRINCIPLES
1. Each person possesses a body, mind, will and life energy. With these intrinsic assets, every person may inherit, build and/or acquire legitimate extrinsic assets to be used to survive and thrive.
2. Every person has the inalienable right to: the uninterrupted enjoyment of their life; to freedom of speech; freedom of association; the freedom to pursue their own just goals and to the property that they justly acquired.
3. The family has proven indispensable to thriving societies throughout human history. It must be honoured and protected against excessive and unwarranted intrusions by government.
4. We honour the past but don’t let it unnecessarily restrict our current and future choices.
5. In civil societies, each person grows from undertaking personal responsibility under age-appropriate circumstances in which individual freedom exists to make life-affirming choices. Governments may assist with the basic needs of those persons who are proven unable to help themselves.
6. The size and cost of government institutions and agencies must be strictly capped. The scope of authority assigned to Governments must be determined solely by Canadian citizens through electoral processes and plebiscites. The application and enforcement of government powers must exist serve Canadians in a transparent and accountable manner. Any public servant(s) who fail to do so may be charged with the crime of embezzling public assets and face appropriate legal consequences.
7. The institutions of governments responsible for Law & Order are accountable to administer and enforce unbiased laws and regulations in a fair, respectful and just manner. Agents of Justice are accountable to defend and protect every citizen from unwarranted and unwanted harms and aggressions imposed by any other person, group, institution or company, and any agent of government or the courts.
8. Under a limited mandate determined electorally by Canadians, Governments hold in trust and maintain public property and common assets only to serve the present and future benefits of all citizens.
9. Governments may only provide and maintain infrastructure and services that could not be adequately provided without government involvement or funding. If anti-trust laws exist to break up corporate monopolies, governments must play by the same rules and not be allowed to dominate market sectors without justification.
10. Competition can and should exist in some of the domains of social and economic activity that are currently the exclusive responsibility of governments. Competition will eliminate the unnecessary and undemocratic monopoly powers of governments and any public-private partnerships that don’t directly serve Canadians.
Now where have I read this before :)
Yes, my question is, how do you do this without recognizing we are not a Nation, we have lost control of our Nation? The UN has stepped in and has taken over our governance and is directly influencing the changes of our laws so much so that our original Preamble no longer stands!
So what laws does our country abide by at this time? If we name it and say we are a UN Country, then we should be following the International Laws.
Wouldn't it be of value to request an FOI around Mulroney's signing Canada up for the UN back in 1992, to see what all the parameters are?
UDHR Universal Declaration of Human Rights - https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
OHCHR /ICCPR - https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-and-mechanisms/international-human-rights-law
oh wow! that's been re-written I just noticed
It's now Equality & Human Rights Commission - https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/
ICESCR International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/ccpr.pdf
There's a lot of work to get out of these UN Laws...
It would be great to see an alliance towards the Schiller Institutes Coalition for World Peace:
https://schillerinstitute.com/?s=coalition+for+world+peace
The LaRouche movement which is followed up by the Schiller Institute's Helga Zepp-LaRouche, Lyndon LaRouche' widow is a long time running systems of economic development that create a balanced world in peace by eliminating poverty and creating a sustainable future thus a greater sustainable future for humanity.
I like what Daniele Smith is doing in Alberta. The Alberta Sovereignty Act is a step towards breaking the legislative handcuffs between the Federal Government and the people of Alberta. If she takes it to the logical conclusions, she will be able to exercise Alberta sovereignty against any “agreement” between the UN (and others) and the Canadian government.
I wrote the ONTARIO CHARTER OF RIGHTS & FREEDOMS as a symbolic flag around which Ontario residents can write an Ontario Sovereignty Act. https://libertarian.on.ca/platform/2022/ontario_charter
yes it would be wonderful if we had a BC Conservative party that would do this for BC as well!
Are you confusing Mr Stronach's country of origin with the economic principles of Hayek and Von Mises?
Martin, I found this for a better explanation on the Austrian Economic approach:
https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/keynes-vs-von-hayek-debate-false-dualism-with-malthusian-characteristics/
But isn't everything these days a battle for our minds?
https://substack.com/home/post/p-140540738
Perhaps, but not less than Canadians have a perception about China and their people.
It seems that at the heart of our education system comes a full scale indoctrination of beliefs and even as far as mass psychosis.
When I read these 7 Principles, I don't feel safe or that the country will survive, because they do not address to core rotten cause of why we lost Canada, why we've damaged the environment and how the green climate talk of the UN, WEF especially are pushed upon us which is completely unsustainable, these 7 Principles don't light a candle to what Lyndon LaRouche and the Schiller Institutes functional principles offer.
When I hear Helga Zepp-LaRouche speak, my nervous system calms down, I feel the strategies they have to offer are not only addressing the root causes, but also, how to progressively move forward in a multipolar world with peace.
Perhaps there is a cause to implement and work with the Schiller Institute for finding the support, especially in the development and societal well being and standards of living.
We lost Canada the Nation a long time ago, thanks to Mr Mulroney!
In case you are unaware, https://mises.org/ is the #1 site in the world for the Austrian “school” of Economics which has many great thinkers and writers. I only recognize the Austrian School as the legitimate form of Economics for Civil Societies. The Keynesian and Chicago “schools” place governments and central banks as the central authorities of Western economies. Read “Democracy, The God That Failed by Dr. Hans-Hermann Hoppe if you want to better understand possibilities for less authoritarian economies.
We will have to agree to disagree. Austrian Economics is the basis of the oligarchical system... you know once the Venetian Empire collapsed, they set up in Austria and influenced the banking/economic developments then. Still accustomed to the Malthusian principles of the oligarch we are seemingly both opposed to this day.
Perhaps you may also wish to realize, the 'West' is collapsing due to the involvement that supports these mechanisms.
https://rumble.com/v41a1w0-connecting-the-dots-2-the-fight-over-the-new-financial-order-with-tom-luong.html?start=56
I wonder is we are speaking of two different things. I have read and studied Austrian Economics (see www.Mises.org) for 17 years and studied Keynesian Economics at U of Toronto in the late 1970s as part of an MBA program. You seem to be referring to historical geo-political shifts that took place centuries ago rather than the very rich corpus of Austrian Economics scholars. The fight over the “new financial order” is funded by billionaires and led by globalists associated with the WEF, UN, WHO, IMF and IBS. Their attempts to create a One World Order are completely contrary to every value and principle of those Austrian Economics scholars and Libertarians like me who favour the Austrian School of Economics.
No I'm taking a stance with historical proof of how strongly against the Austrian Economics school I am...
The people who supported Independent National Developments in the US and elsewhere, were followers of the American Systems of Economics - initiated by Alexander Hamilton ~ most recently carried forward by late Lyndon LaRouche but still active with the Schiller Institute movement.
What few believe is the story of Sun Yat-sen who followed these principles - the first Chinese President that practiced Christian faith also. The Germans did also and many other "Independent" seeking countries.
Here is the philosophical differences you may want to read about.
https://larouchepub.com/lar/2023/5012-the_urgency_of_the_american_sy-lar.html
If you are educated in libertarian think tank systems, I cannot expect miracles, but I guess I feel if you can't see the values in this directive of the Glass Steagall and American Systems of Economics to not only work together in a multi-polar world, well... I have no need to try to convince you. However, I feel without this shift our world will forever be enthralled in oligarchical control, continuous war and eventually an extinction, to put things lightly.
The Colonialists do have their record for destruction over negotiation and freedoms.
Like I guessed, we are speaking of two entirely different things.